Completely new vaping mode (TC-like)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Zviratko, May 22, 2017.

  1. Zviratko

    Zviratko New Member

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    Resistance on many mods tends to fluctuate, so any temp control has to be re-adjusted from time to time.
    What TC mode does it "assume" that the initial resistance is set right (to what temperature is it even supposed to be cooled down?) and that the resistance reading is consistent and exact enough (it isn't)
    Without locking the resistance, TC can't work correctly, because it aims for target resistance, assuming that's when the temperature is reached.
    You also need to know things like TCR, TFR, and in theory you should also know what the resistance of the "non heating" part of the current path is.
    What we get is Snake oil.

    So I propose we get a completely different mode for vaping

    To see what I mean:

    1) set power to a level you would be comfortable vaping in VW mode
    2) set temperature much higher (300 C or so)
    3) vape and watch what the temperature reading does
    4) it will more or less stop at one point (it will heat much much slower) - that's the point where juice is rapidly evaporating and thus cooling the coil. At this point the temperature is probably a bit too high for someone looking for TC.

    Firmware could either detect this point or let the user stop firing at this point, and so it should be possible to avoid the whole TC resistance-reading mess, and just detect the difference in how fast the resistance rises.

    How I imagine it would work in firmware

    First use:
    1) while firing, measure how fast the resistance rises
    2) when user stops firing, store the speed of resistance/temperature change as a reference for "hot"

    Subsequent use:

    1) set "temperature" on the mod, but not in C scale but something like cooler-hotter (wher the max is what was measured in the 2) before)
    2) fire like in TC mode and measure the speed of the temperature change, aim for that speed

    Benefits:
    1) we don't need to know the exact resistance (initial nor target)
    2) user doesn't have to fiddle with resistances
    3) it should even work across different builds (it would be more dependant on mass)

    Does this make sense?
     
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  2. FoxyFog

    FoxyFog New Member

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    To me it totally does make sense. I hear the question "but at which temperature am I supposed to vape?" all the time. Your suggestion is basically making all numbers obsolete, it would just add some automatic dry-hit protection on top of the standard power mode.
     
  3. punkt

    punkt New Member

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    that is the best way to use tc mode. just set a high temperature as limit to prevent dry hits or empty tank and play with Wattage
     
  4. ReikoKitsune

    ReikoKitsune Developer
    NFE Team

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    Nope.

    Device cannot calculate temperature without initial (cold) resistance of the coil(s).

    He should ^^

    Without absolute thing like temperature will be impossible to adjust "system".

    After releasing Fire button coil may be still cold.
    Resistance growth will be very dependent on the real coil temperature (which we can't calculate even in the TC mode) and coil material.
    To get less or more functional system user should play with power, but it should anyway play with something... resistance, power, temperature, whatever...

    Your implementation will be very unreliable and will cause even more problems than a conventional TC.
    If i remember correctly some of manufactures created one ot two device with a "unique" TC mode which should work even on the FeCrAl (Kanthal)... and this was great fail :D
     
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  5. Zviratko

    Zviratko New Member

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    I don't think you understood what I am proposing :) You need the resistance values (for cold and calculated for various "temperatures") when you care about temperature - but do we? I couldn't care less about resistance, I care about how much I'm pushing the coil and whether the wick is supplying enough juice - in that case, temperature oscillates way below what is set (unless you overdo the wattage). If I watch around what temperature it oscillates, and I set it 5-10C lower, it is much more pleasant.
    Detecting that the resistance is not rising anymore is not that hard to detect, you just use the speed of (resistance) change instead of absolute resistance as a target for the PID regulator.
    Unless you change your coil to something with a wildly differing mass (where the speed of change will be much slower or faster) then it would still work no matter what the resistance is. In fact, you don't even have to use the absolute speed of change to calculate this, just use the difference between the initial speed (=right after you press the firing button) and the current speed, and let the user specify some sort of modifier to apply.
    It has nothing to do with wanting to use Kanthal for TC.


    Unfortunately this "mode" would offer absolutely no dry hit protection, at least not without more intelligence (knowing that the resistance is rising too fast and stopping, which is opposite of what the goal is in normal operation). If you run out of juice, there's no point where the evaporation of the juice and the power get in balance.
    But I have yet to see a TC that offers a real dry hit protection - you always get a bit of charring on the wick and at that point, I personally change the wick because I can taste it forever.
     
  6. DLC86

    DLC86 New Member

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    I think what's called "taste control" on some Ijoy mods works like (or similar to) this.
    I had an Ijoy solo mini last year and this function worked pretty well, and also worked with kanthal. Don't ask me how.
    Obviously it's not a proper TC but at least, in my experience, it prevented almost all dry hits and provided a pretty consistent vape.
     
  7. xarcjive

    xarcjive New Member

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    This is why I don't bother with TC. It seems way too complicated, and inconsistent.
    That said, if there was an easy and consistent way to detect a "thermal runaway" event (dry burn etc) and cut the power , that's a good thing.
    But in the meantime, plain old wattage does the trick for me. ;)
     
  8. Gunawantop

    Gunawantop New Member

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    1. No regulated TC capable board out there able to check actual temperature of the coil, it's all prediction based on the thermal profile of change in resistance ( TCR ).
    2. Some newer chinese boards ( not joyetech boards ) do have smart TC that auto adjust the wattage, user just need to change the set temperature ( it is still based on predictable coil material TCR value ).

    Instead of bothering with TC modes, I make a custom CURVE based on percentage shaped like a hump, that slowly went down a bit lower value than the set wattage. If the vape is still too hot I just readjust the initial set wattage, and not many people can keep on sucking for more than 4-5 seconds anyway unless they have extremely strong tolerance to nicotine throat hit.

    I hope it helps, if not then I keep quiet.
     
  9. weedman

    weedman New Member

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    You should look into the hohmtech line of mods, they use electrical ping timing to measure resistance which is significantly more accurate. i got the hohm slice for $30 and it is fantastic once you take the time to set it up. a freind has the hohm wrecker g2 and it is an even better mod but much more expensive. for the same price as a pico it is 100% better than stock firmware and 25% better than with arctic fox.
     
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  10. CWGSM3V0

    CWGSM3V0 New Member

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    I am in the TC boat and I learned a few things along the way trying to get it working. When I first started using TC I wanted a vape that was similar to VW mode and it took some adjustments (a little) but what I found more often than not was not dry-hits (never had one in TC mode) but rather juice/wick/coil corruption from the heat I was pumping through it which gave me a harsh vape ultimately.

    Originally, I was at 80w / 260C which produced nice plumes and so-so taste (wasn't bad, but wasn't great either) until I asked a question in another thread on here which led me to research the idea a little more. What I discovered was the basic principle of TC doesn't require a University education but rather some simple concepts:

    1 - Start with your coil. I tend to build 316L around 0.20-0.40 depending on material (24/26g) I use and # of wraps
    2 - Lock resistance of coil at room temperature, inside my house (works fine even when it's winter outside afterwards)
    3 - Wicking is important, that part doesn't change. I recently changed from Sheseido cotton pads to Cotton Bacon v2 (I was in the boat that cotton is cotton but it does make a difference and saves time as well)
    4 - TC is not like VW mode where you pump large amounts of wattage/current through the coil but rather it's the ramp-up speed
    5 - Set the temperature at 215C which apparently is the burning point of cotton
    6 - Adjust temperature upwards until it's comfortable to where you like it

    ArcticFox gave me a much better TC vape than stock Wismec RX200 FW because I could adjust the pre-heat, etc (I know the stock FW allows this too, but it's pretty limited.) As I stated, I was originally at 80w / 260C and I'm now at 40w / 215C and the vape is tasty and plenty of cloud-chucking to satisfy me (the cloud part never gets old...) I know some people don't like TC because the vape isn't warm/hot enough, for me, that's not an issue.

    Even when I rebuild my coils and move around the environment (say inside my air-conditioned home) from cold, cool, warm, hot (like when I was in Jamaica recently) this build is consistent and I don't need to adjust anything, it just works.

    So right now, I'm on 170613 ArcticFox on a Wismec RX200 with a Geekvape Ammit Dual-Coil tank:

    Wire - TCR
    Coil - 0.22ohms
    Power - 40 watts
    Temp - 215C
    Pre-heat - Curve; boost 2 seconds
    TCR - 92

    Sorry, a bit off topic I suppose but thought I'd share my results as it seemed somewhat relevant to this topic. I just find that when it comes to TC most people over-think how it's done (I was one of them; constantly adjusting) but when you break it down to simple points and work from there, it's a lot easier.

    -Chris
     
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  11. weedman

    weedman New Member

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    i build about the same coils in a bambino, have you tried tfr mode yet? i had the same coils in it for about a year working well (lots of dry burn and cotton changes), but it wasnt until i tried tfr mode on the pico that things got complicated. tfr on my rx200 with .15 316L is flawless, but it never sees 70-80 degree environmental temperature swings between puffs
     
  12. CWGSM3V0

    CWGSM3V0 New Member

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    With the stock firmware, I was just running in SS mode and would build coils and use it in TC mode as-is. I never adjusted the TCR from factory. As I posted above that with Arcticfox, I started playing with TCR and got a pretty decent vape but coil/cotton/juice corruption was still a problem.

    Earlier last week I picked up a 15' spool of UD SS316L/KA1 clapton wire (26/32g) and just tried it tonight (and roughly verified it with steam-engine's wire wizard) -- 8 wraps around 2.5mm bit, dual coil, came out to 0.33ohms. So I read your post about TFR and ended up trying 316L TFR mode and then used steam-engine's WW "equivalents" option which advised me to drop it down to 210C (I was at 215C) and I have to say, I'm very impressed with how it's working out (I did change my preheat to percent/130/0.8sec) -- Very very nice vape, better then I've had in a long time. Like you, I never really see it hit temp-max, it's usually 10-20 degrees off of what I have the maximum set to (210C in this case.)

    Nevertheless, it's still pretty darn decent and I'm enjoying TFR here.
     
  13. Gedeon

    Gedeon Member

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    Hello :)

    Wattage mode can't prevent from a dry hit.
    This is what TC is supposed to do, and it does it well on AF, when needed parameters (cold ohms locked at room temperature, TCR/TFR) are correctly set. Maybe you got a bad experience that lead you to switch to wattage mode ?
    When something wrong is going with TC, it's often a user error misconfiguration, or hardware problem (bad contacts on the 510, on the posts etc.)

    What trick are you refering to ?
     
  14. Gunawantop

    Gunawantop New Member

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    Current TCR/TFR technology is only temperature prediction based on the previously recorded/calculated resistance changes.

    Things get even more complicated when a mod is trying to maintain a constant temperature, while it also need to "know" when the coil and wick is drying up. The rise of temperature above the user set temperature equals to dry coil and wick, and it requires for most mod makers to constantly tweak their settings and firmwares.

    Evolv boards are only a little better than most because the TCR/TFR profiles are incredibly detailed, but it is still based on prediction based on previously recorded/calculated resistance changes.

    Complex Nichrome 80 wires are even worse for TCR since the makes, quality, build type can completely put the best calculation to whack.

    In short: unless there's a mod and an atomizer with actual temperature sensitive sensor, we will probably never have a real temp control method that really works.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  15. Gunawantop

    Gunawantop New Member

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    If there's a mod with actual temperature sensor, I think it is much easier to make proper TC mode even for Kanthal and Nichrome wires.
    For example, user can fire a wet coil until it dries up, the mod will measure the temperature rise speed and time for that particular build, repeat a couple more times until users able to spot a burnt coil.
    Then based on recorded events, the user can set a temperature parameter so that coil will get much less burnt cotton.
    For example:
    User A installed a 0.2 ohm dual coil Kanthal alien coils, wet the wick properly, then enter a TC Record mode on his mod, he set it for 440 fahrenheit.
    He then press fire for 5 secs certain number of times and the mod starts recording the temperature rise of that particular coil build.
    On the last moment when the cotton is dried up and get burnt, the mod will show the final temperature ( ie. 500 degress fahrenheit) , then user will just need to make a temperature preset range of 440 to 490 with maximum temp rise of 5 secs and minimum 1 sec. Any anomaly that happens beyond those parameters are considered dried coil, any numbers below those preset are considered temperature not high enough/wet wick.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. xarcjive

    xarcjive New Member

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    Yes, I agree (regarding Wattage mode having no protection from dry hits), but I have just found all my TC builds very inconsistent, and have to constantly increase - or decrease - the temperature setting to get a satisfying vape. I only vape at 50W and below so dry hits aren't such a big issue.
    And, the "trick" is just a phrase, meaning Wattage mode works for me. :)
     
  17. cajoch99

    cajoch99 New Member

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    Its interesting bro, I am in Europe, do you know about shop which is selling it across Europe?
     
  18. weedman

    weedman New Member

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    sorry, im in canada and hohmtech is american. they are not popular because they are complicated. great mod tho
     
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  19. cajoch99

    cajoch99 New Member

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    thanks for info