Help needed with a NEW borked mod - ESPION 200W

Discussion in 'Discussions' started by k3rb3r05, Aug 31, 2019.

  1. k3rb3r05

    k3rb3r05 Member

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    TESTING PROFILES
    COMMON

    NFE TOOLS: 190703
    HARDWARE ver: 1.00
    COIL: SS316L, 28awg, 7 wraps, spaced, 2.0 ID​
    ESPION 200W
    FIRMWARE ver: RP_190624
    WISMEC RX GEN3 DUAL
    FIRMWARE ver: AF_190624

    (I realise that this post might be out of the scope of this forum, so my apologies to the developers / moderators. If you think it needs to be deleted, feel free to do so)

    I bought Espion 200W (from a local dealer) last Friday. Brought it home, installed latest NFE tools and RP firmware and after configuring it like my RX gen3 dual, i opened the device monitor and took a puff. I got this:
    [​IMG]

    I don't own an oscilloscope to monitor how the device acts on stock firmware. What are my options? Is there another way to monitor mod without installing RedPanda on it? If there isn't another way, will Joyetech accept the graph as proof or will they void warranty for installing custom firmware and/or blame it on RedPanda and refuse to look at it/fix it? Does anyone have experience on that department?

    Any help is appreciated.
     
    #1 k3rb3r05, Aug 31, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  2. tim_buktu

    tim_buktu Member

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    I have a few questions :)
    What wire are you using? What TCR value did you applie?
    For my understanding I would say the TCR value for used wire is much to low. Are you shure that the cold resistance value is right?
    The behavior of it is: You press fire and nothing happens (no vape) right?

    Did you check the MOD with the stock firmware first?
     
  3. k3rb3r05

    k3rb3r05 Member

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    Stainless Steel 316, 28 awg, spaced, 7 wraps
    Didn't apply TCR. Used native TC SS-316
    Yes. I let it cool down first
    It vapes. But it instantly reaches temp protection.
    Yes. It vapes. But it instantly reaches temp protection.

    After I did the test on Espion, I installed same atomizer on RX gen3 dual and got the following (btw, even at its worst (wrong coil resistance, wrong TCR), RX never cut off power to the coil during the vape, like Espion did. Then again, RX never reached 6000 degrees Fahrenheit coil temperature. At most, +50 degrees above set value):
    [​IMG]
     
    #3 k3rb3r05, Sep 1, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
  4. tim_buktu

    tim_buktu Member

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    I need to say that I am not familar with Red Panda, I don't have any device with it (yet:)).
    But should be similar. When you are using the preset values for wire, can you set it to SSL316 TFR and post the monitoring?
    You also can try the TCR mode (use value of 90 please) and doubble check. Having same behavior?
    Set the cold resistance to the same value for each test.
     
    maelstrom2001 likes this.
  5. k3rb3r05

    k3rb3r05 Member

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    Same as AF's configuration screen.

    SS316L TFR
    [​IMG]

    TCR 90
    [​IMG]
     
  6. maelstrom2001

    maelstrom2001 Developer
    NFE Team

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    Hello!
    SS TCR may vary from 88 up to 120. Default SS316 TCR in ArcticFox and RedPanda is 92, default TCR in OEM firmwares is 120.
    Agree that. And/or locked cold resistance is lower than it should be.
    @k3rb3r05 screw cold atomizer on your RX GEN3 Dual, disable TC (set mode to plain variable wattage) and start Device Monitor. Look at Live Resistance chart while standby and puff. Keep resistance values that you get, then do the same with Espion and compare results. In the ideal case the difference between "hot" and "cold" resistances should be the same on both boxes, nevertheless the absolute readings may vary. If both deltas are equals, the only thing you have to do is to slightly increase cold resistance in Espion profile (and set proper TCR/TFR as well).
     
    tim_buktu likes this.
  7. tim_buktu

    tim_buktu Member

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    When I calculate the cold resistance (assuming the windings to be 3mm) I get a value of 0,79 ohm. Wire wizard says 0,811 for SS316 not SS316L (right?). If you don't have a little shortcut between the windings (or the chamber) that get released when you are heating, you may have a wire that is labeled wrong. Maybe titanium...
    When you do like Maelstrom suggested, then post that monitoring, too. If I could get two solid value pairs (T1-R1;T2-R2) I can calculate the TCR and we may find the answer.
     
  8. k3rb3r05

    k3rb3r05 Member

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    Can a difference of 3 points (in TCR) have that much of a difference? (Plz look last 2 images)

    Cold resistance didn't have that much of a difference. Went from 0.59 to 0.597

    RX Gen3 Dual
    [​IMG]
    ESPION
    [​IMG]

    ESPION TCR 114

    [​IMG]

    ESPION TCR 117

    [​IMG]

    ESPION TCR 117 (after it cooled down)
    [​IMG]

    I have edited 1st post to include testing parameters.
    Coil used : SS316L, 28awg, 7 wraps, spaced, 2.0 ID

    But it has been broken in and rewicked a few times.
    No shorts. Atomizer uses clamps to hold wire down, and every time I rewick, I check the tension of the screws.
    I am pretty sure it is labeled right. At TCR = 70 , i get a very cold vape. At TCR 150, I get a very hot one.

    EDIT: Typo on last image. had put down TCR 177 instead of 117
     
    #8 k3rb3r05, Sep 3, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  9. tim_buktu

    tim_buktu Member

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    very strange. I posted a chart with calculated resistance to temperature relation for TCR 90. (Inner diameter = 2mm)

    As Maelstrom has explained, a good TCR value for SS316 is the default of AF with 92. I calculated with 90 just to see what it gets.
    When look to my chart, you see that the related temperature to 0,8 ohm reaches 800°F. If this would be true you wick most be cole yet.
    For some reason your resistance increases much more than it should.

    What atomizer are you using, do you have another one?
     

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  10. maelstrom2001

    maelstrom2001 Developer
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    I see another strange thing on your screenshots:
    If this chart was recorded during a puff, it is not proper setup for TC on our boxes. Just look at power when the temperature is set: it is almost 5 times lower than set - 6 watts, but set is 25. There can be no talk about the stable operation under such an overload. In fact, this is that we call "deep protection" state, when the power is dramatically decreased. Side effect of this state is measurement of resistance with a very large error, and therefore you can see completely unreal values at temperature chart and the spaces in resistance reading chart.
    And if the problem is that system goes into deep protection during a puff, you must first deal with the cold resistance set. Thats why I ask you to disable TC and make a puff.
    Make another useful measurement: clear cold resistance in profile, then screw atomizer and start monitor. Do not make a puff, just look at cold resistance and live resistance charts while your coil stays cold at room temperature. And then look at temperature chart: the coil temperature measured in realtime should be about 70°F. If not, edit cold resistance in profile until it happens.
     
  11. k3rb3r05

    k3rb3r05 Member

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    That was the "RX Gen3 Dual" plot with PID enabled on it (P=170 / I = 40)

    (haven't bothered with PID in the ESPION yet)

    I am using "EHPRO TRUE MTL RTA". Got a mini nautilus with a VW coil head. Will attempt to convert it to TC tomorrow.
     
    #11 k3rb3r05, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  12. k3rb3r05

    k3rb3r05 Member

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    Would a defective opamp chip cause such behavior on the ESPION?